We've spent the last several months in this room. Our waiting/conference room. We've been studying for the Enrolled Agent exam. By the end of this week we will be done with our daily studies and our test will have been taken. I don't really feel any anxiety - I've done well enough on our practice tests that I'm confident that I'll pass (though, I won't know for about six months).
This room, though, makes me think. This is a room in which to wait or to study. I know this may sound like a weak jump to something philosophical, but with my impending exam (and because of the music I'm listening to right now) I feel somewhat justified.
Any type of certification, graduation, license, and/or education acts as a mark in the life of a student. I'm less interested in the final score, the final grade; I'm interested in the time applied and the knowledge gained.
I won't lie however, sometimes I feel weak and pitiable because I wonder if I'd have the fortitude to learn the requisite material if I wasn't incased in the program outlines or if I wasn't compelled by someone. I mean, my last college semester: would I have passed any classes if I didn't have to submit my weekly reviews? For this Enrolled Agent exam: if my dad and brothers weren't also meeting would I have studied on my own?
Here’s where this issue plays on my mind: at what point is a person's independence impedance? I've grown up believing that self-containment, self-reliance, self-control is the attribute a rational and wise human being should be found possessed of. But, when should I rely on auxiliary systems when those systems appear inherently damming?
I know I could probably get through this life without any "formal" education, without any pieces of paper to prove my importance, without any help. But, how much better would it be if I do what it takes to excel while grabbing awards and plaques even with (or especially because of) a program or person that encourages it?
Will I study in the shadow of another or will I pridefully wait on my own?
16 comments:
Placards, awards, certificates and all in the end are all just a waste of time.
The D&C tells us that whatever knowledge we attain to in this life will be better for us in the next. (Lousy paraphrase) This can only mean one kind of knowledge - a knowledge of Jesus Christ all that encompasses.
It seems to me that when I pass from this life, all earthly knowledge (including taxes, which will be irrelevant, chemistry, physics, etc., etc., etc.) will be passed to me at my request. Even if we do have to take classes, our minds will not be bogged down by the limitations we now face.
Awards, etc., seem to epitomize being in the world AND of the world! This is how the world categorizes people. This is how the world determines who it can "trust." Mostly, it's just so we can be stratified.
What about doing good? Is it worth only doing good if we are compelled by some external recompense? Should we be compelled to help others only if our names will be etched on some award hanging in a hallway noone travels down.
They say the love of money if the root of all evil. Does this drive ones need for worldly praise?
The road of public recognition is well lit by the reflecting gold trophies or the glittery illusion of fame. But altruism leads us down a dark and lonely road which can be lit only by our inner light, which is dim in the dazzling lights of applause.
The ONLY time recognition is noteworthy is when we seek it to help others.
Two scriptures:
Mosiah 2:17 -
And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom; that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God.
When we serve ourselves we are serving ourselves. We don't serve our fellow beings and we don't serve our God. Aren't these the two great commandments?
Jacob 2:18-19 -
18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.
19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.
We seek the kingdom of god when we seek to help others. The only justification, according to scripture, to seek after riches is to do good. That's the bottom line.
In the end a waste of time?Question 1: Are you saying that paper accomplishments are irrelevant - or are they an unfortunate necessity? Is it okay that the world uses them to classify people – or is it wrong?As a man, I believe I have a responsibility to provide for my (future) family. I think it’s sad when a husband is unable to support his wife and children properly. Now, the definition of “properly” can be subjective, but generally speaking, I think it means the husband ought to try to make enough as to avoid the requirement of dual incomes.
In order for that type of income to be a possibility a person needs to, in my opinion, either (1) be self-employed, (2) have a degree/certificate or two, and/or (3) be an exceptionally dedicated worker (or, any combination of the three).
The majority of the world (that makes what I would consider suitable income) follows the path of item #2 – which is the group that you so quickly consider to have wasted time.
I personally am the item #1 type of person. I love self-employment and believe it’s the way to go if you’re fortunate enough to have the opportunity. I’ve never gotten a college degree. I don’t know that I ever will. Don’t get me wrong, I not-so-secretly would love to get a Ph.D.: because I think it’d be a huge accomplishment. But, we’ll see if it fits in my plans.
My point is, I think knowledge matters most, but degrees, certifications, licenses, etc, are a necessary evil.
Question 2: Are you saying that it is pointless to learn any type of “earthly” knowledge because we could learn it so easily and quickly after this life? And, that it’s only important to learn eternal truths?My belief is that the mind is like a muscle. The more you use it the better it becomes. I don’t believe for a second that a person could let their brain turn to mush and then go to the next life expecting to learn whatever they wanted as quickly as the person who had exercised their mental capacities.
I do, however, agree that we’d be better off to have the majority of our learning be centered on eternal truths, but I think that would be a difficult task. Correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t it be hard to make a decent living if all I knew was Christ’s gospel?
To clarify, I believe that eternal truths/Christ’s gospel are the same and that they encompass more then we’ll know, but my point is: I assume (as I think you do) that taxes do not fit into the category of “eternal truth” – nor to a lot of other professions.
Conclusion:On the whole I agree with your statements. However, I think they are a bit too over simplified – and, honestly, a bit tactless.
I completely agree with you that service and altruism brings more happiness and ultimately builds a character that is more god-like then any type of degree or certificate could ever do. But, I don’t believe that a person could live a life of complete philanthropy and not end up ruining his family life. If a person spent all the time in service, a person couldn’t make money, and therefore couldn’t provide for a family.
Money is the root of all evil? I think that can also include the lack of it.
Hey dude, is that where the climbing walls and ping pong table use to be? If so... I'm VERY impressed with how it looks now! You guys must be watching a lot of HGTV or something to have done such an amazing make-over.
Nice work!
Well said, Jen. I agree 100%.
Zoom Agent: Thanks. I'll let my parents know (since they're the ones who did it).
You guys are so funny! And so narrowly focused. Both of you have made my point.
Let me reiterate what I said:
The ONLY time recognition is noteworthy is when we seek it to help others.
Jen makes that point with the medical analogy and with the long quote from Pres. Hinckley. And I totally agree with Jen's last statement about the love of money. In fact, some one else said something about that. Who was it? Oh yeah it was me, "They say the love of money if (sic) the root of all evil."
It's not only important to learn eternal truths because, obviously, we are in this world. But is only one who's a doctor or a lawyer or an account of any worth? The main point of Pres. Hinckley's quote is to learn to do good.
Both Jen and Bri made the point of not having our knowledge handed to us after we die. OK fair enough. But how long is eternity? How long is forever?
Let's say you spend your whole life learning and living the truths of the gospel. You never make a lot of money. You never donate millions to the local school or other charity. You never help people with their taxes or their medical needs. But you spend everyday in helping people just because it's the right thing to do (you don't need a certificate to tell you that). You do your part to make it into the celestial kingdom. Obviously you're not going to have the same knowledge as the doctor or lawyer or college professor who makes it their too. And let's say it takes you another 80 years to gain the knowledge the others gained on earth. Or maybe it takes a thousand years or a million years. Is he worse off? Remind me again how long eternity is.
But let's not stop there. Let's modify the scenario a bit.
Let's say a poor man with no college education spends his life learning and living the teachings of Jesus. He lives to 80. He makes it into the Celestial kingdom. A doctor spends his whole life seeking worldly knowledge and riches and has know knowledge or Jesus Christ and the gospel. Then before he dies (he also lives to 80), let's say 1 years, he learns of the gospel and accepts it and qualifies himself for the Celesial kingdom. I think it would be clear that the man who spends his whole life learning the gospel would have a greater knowledge of gospel things. So, if it takes the 1 year man another 80 years to learn all about the gospel, or a thousand years, or a million years and it takes the life-long gospel man the same amount of time to learn all the earthly stuff????? Who's better off? How long is eternity? What if they teach each other?
Will you be jealous of the person who repents late in life but still makes it into the Celestial kingdom? Doesn't the gospel teach us that we should spend our lives doing good and repenting? What if someone doesn't but still receive the same reward? Or what if their reward is greater? I'm thinking prodigal son here.
What good is it to gain the whole world if you lose your soul?
I thought I was done with this. But I guess that I'm not.
Is some knowledge more important eternally than others? Is the knowledge a doctor gains more important than what a garbage collector gains?
What about people who are unable to gain knowledge. What about people with mental handicaps? Are they worse off when the get to the other side?
How about a person who didn't have the chance for education or for hearing the gospel? Holy cow, these guys must be really behind.
Wow! This is quite a spirited discussion you have going on here. Let's just remember that "to be learned is good" and leave it at that. It's obvious that everyone has a different way of measuring that in their lives.
By the way that office is cool. I think it's changed since the last time I was there (which was when a bunch of people came over to watch Pirates of the Caribbean this past winter).
Bring on a new blog! I can't wait to see how Brian's ideas get attacked next! ;)
I don't think his ideas will ever be "attacked" again if the opinions expressed therein will be dimissed with simple I-guess-every-one-has-different-opinions statements. What's the use of having any kind of dialogue?
Let's get the whole scripture for "to be learned is good."
2 Nephi 9:28-29
28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.
29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.
I think this proves my point again.
[This is going to get long (and boring, I bet)…]
Okay, I’m starting to get confused. Who’s writing what? If you’re going to post anonymously could you add a “signature” or something so we all could keep track? Even if it’s just your initials.
As for the “attacking”. I know that was a joke (I thought it was funny), but to be precise, I think I was the one attacking. Now, that’s we’re clear on that…
I think the point of “how long is eternity” is valid. Well, stated. I think my (as well as Jen’s) initial interpretation of Mr. Anonymous point on after-life learning was that at a “snap-of-the-figure” a person would become super smart (e.g. a Matrix-style download of knowledge). I don’t agree with that (though, I could be totally wrong anyway), and with the further writings of Mr. Anonymous I think he also doesn’t believe that (correct me if I’m wrong). So, okay, there’s something we all agree on. Right?
Next two points (and the only other items of “confrontation” – as far as I know) are the topic of: (1) “Worldly” vs Gospel knowledge and the importance of each/both, (2) Time spent in Service vs Business.
Am I right so far? Can we agree that these are the areas that we’re trying to debate? (It helps me to clarify our topics so that I know what the heck we’re all talking about)
Worldly vs Gospel KnowledgeAgain I’ll refer to my belief that the mind is similar to a muscle. The more we use it the stronger it becomes. Or, maybe, the more we use it the more we like using it – perhaps that’s a more important point.
I bring up the last point because I agree that a mentally handicapped person would be at a disadvantage in my original theory. Also, an older person suffering from brain degradation (e.g. stroke patients, Alzheimer’s) would fall into the category of someone who would be at a disadvantage.
Yes, there’s no getting around it: if I argue that any type of knowledge gained in this life is advantageous then people with mental limits would be screwed. But, my only defense is that I think some circumstances will cause exceptions.
As for your point of two people: the one who is poor but spends his time learning gospel principles and the other being a doctor who spends his time learning “worldly” truths. In my opinion, both of the fellows are doing the right thing. Does one have an advantage over the other? Well, the doctor has an advantage in this life (because he’ll have money to support his family), and the poor man will probably have an advantage in the next life.
That said is it better to be the poor man since the next life is so much longer then this? Not necessarily, in my opinion. But, see, it depends on several other factors in each of the fellow’s lives.
Does the poor fellow have a family? How poor is he? Is he using gospel knowledge and service as an excuse to avoid work to make money? Is he so poor that he ruins his family life? Okay, let’s not go that extreme. I’ll assume he can provide for his family well enough, he just doesn’t have “extra” money. He doesn’t have extra because he’s spending his time in service and in gospel study. Right?
The doctor: is he a doctor only because he imagined that it would make him rich? Does he spend all the money on himself or does he use it to help others? Couldn’t the doctor spend a lot of time in service? If the doctor is using his wealth for good isn’t he learning gospel principles? Heck, isn’t the doctor learning gospel principles while studying? I gotta believe that biological knowledge will come in handy after this life.
Okay, so maybe a doctor isn’t a good example because one could argue that medical knowledge could be beneficial after this life. But, a tax accountant? Yeah, I have a hard time seeing tax knowledge as important after this life. Well, couldn’t a tax professional use the money he makes to help others? Couldn’t he use it as retirement so that he can service a mission with his wife?
Anyway, back to the two fellows. I don’t know that there’s any easy way to compare the two. So many other factors would change the scenarios. Could we simplify it like this: both fully support their families, both donate any “extra’ money to charity, both spend extra time in service – let’s say equal amounts, the both live Christ-like lives. The only difference is that as the doctor spends his time keeping abreast of medical knowledge the not-so-wealth fellow has additional time for scripture study. Let’s even simplify by saying they are both members of the same church.
So, now, the only thing we’re arguing is whither or not the time in medical study is better or worse then the scripture study, right? Let’s even say that both die at age 50 so that there’s no chance that the doctor would have been able to retire and spend 24/7 on a church mission. So, now we’re down to time spent studying scriptures versus “worldly” knowledge.
That’s a tuff one. My opinion is that the person studying scriptures is probably at an advantage. Would I be the “poor” man just to get that advantage? No, I don’t think so. My reasoning would be that the “poor” man probably wouldn’t be able to serve a mission as easily or readily. Also, isn’t there an advantage to saving lives as a doctor? Yeah, I think things might somehow even out.
As for the tax man. Am I saving lives? No, probably not. Am I helping anybody out – at least, help that has a lasting application? Maybe, maybe not. So, why do I do taxes then? Honestly, it’s so I can make a lot of money. Is that wrong? I don’t think so. Could be though if I don’t plan on helping anybody out. Also, isn’t working hard and making a good living what the prophet recommends?
Here’s what I believe my ladder of responsibility to be:
1) Heavenly Father
2) Yourself (what good am I, if I can’t take care of myself?)
3) Family
4) Career
5) Church
6) Community
Also, I think this goes without saying: life is about balance.
As for the prodigal son. I do think he/she will be at a disadvantage. If that weren’t the case, why, as a missionary, wouldn’t we tell all our investigators to sit out this life and just wait until the next to join the church? Why shouldn’t we just tell them to chill and take it easy – as long as they read their scriptures to learn gospel knowledge? There’s enough time after this life to sort everything out, right? Naw, I’m not sure I believe that. I don’t believe in deathbed repentance.
Do you believe that “worldly” knowledge is pointless? (worldly defined as tax accounting, legal, garbage truck driving, doctoring, etc.) I’m assuming you don’t believe that because why do you work and make money then?
Time spent in Service vs BusinessAs for this topic. I think the above included this one, a little.
My only thought is that balance is in order again.
Who’s at an advantage the person who serves all the time or the person who works? Probably the person who serves, but I don’t think full-time service is a reality. Sure, maybe for a short period of time. But, I don’t think a person could go their whole life in service. I mean, look at Jesus; he was a carpenter for a while.
I think, for the most part, we are in agreement. But, I’m still confused with your statements that “worldly” knowledge is pointless. Could I get clarification on that? If you really believe that, then why not leave your work right now and become a traveling service man? I assume you work (Mr. Anonymous), and if so, why? Have you gone to school? Why? Do you continue to learn “worldly” knowledge? Why? Because of human weakness, or is there a reason?
Mr. Anonymous = Bob Brady.
I'll have more to say later after I do some charitable service.
I don't think I've seen this many anonymous postings. I think it's a good idea to idenitfy ourselves in some way since not all of us are motivated enough to start a blog of our own. If we get to pick anonymous monikers then I want to be known as Ms. Pacman. Dude, I'm all about the '80s.
I'm glad that someone found my "attack" comment funny. It's amazing how posting your opinion can lead to such a great debate.
-Ms. Pacman
Funny again Ms. Pacman!
BB
There's so much to refute here, but mostly I think I'll stick to your last paragraph and answer your questions (with some minor tangents).
First, you're question about why don't a just become a traveling salesman is a good one. Honestly, I want to make a lot of money. Bottom Line. In order to do that in this world, you have to gain knowledge. Does this undermine my argument? Hardly? However, it will clarify it for both of us, I hope.
So, I say that I need to gain worldly knowledge to make money. That seems to validate the idea that worldly knowledge is at least worth something. Surprising to some folks, I actually believe this. Here's the thing, I'm not under the delusion that this knowledge will give some advantage in the next life or even be worth anything. I don't necessarily think it will give me a disadvantage either. It's just there.
We've all heard, or read the scripture, that the glory of God is intelligence. There's another scripture that says that God's work and glory is to bring to pass the eternal life of men. It's arguable, then, that God's glory comes in knowing how to help His children obtain eternal life. If this is true, and if we are supposed to become as God, then it seems to me that the most important knowledge is how to obtain eternal life. (I don't think that any of us are arguing against this.) Oh yeah, well part of the plan is having an earth to live on. So, knowing biology is just as important as knowing about faith and repentance and the holy ghost. I wouldn't stake my salvation and exaltation on it.
So, with all other things being equal, I think I would rather not risk making it to the Celestial Kingdom in pursuing earthly rewards and accolades.
I mentioned this before, but I want to mention this again because it goes to my point here.
Jacob 2:18-19 -
18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.
19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.
We should seek the kingdom of God first - no argument here, right? However, I think it's very clear that we shall obtain riches for the intent to do good. Jacob expands on what it means to do good. Seeking after riches just for the sake of being rich or for self agrandizement or to get a bigger house or nicer car or whatever other worldly pleasure is pointless and meaningless and detrimental.
I hope that satisfactorily answers the questions of the last paragraph.
Now, there are a couple of other subjects I would like to address.
Let's address your ladder of responsibility...
The two great commandments are love the Lord your God with all your...
The second is to love your neighbor as yourself.
I think this would at least bump yourself down to behind family.
I think Jesus also said that he who loses himself in his work, will find himself. Pres. Hinckley's dad told him to forget himself and get to work. I believe that in the process of doing the Lord's work, we take care of our salvation. Accordingly, we should put other above ourselves.
About the prodigal son...
I know we want our lives to have meaning. I know that we want the fact that we remained faithful all our lives to have meaning. I think that when we express the idea that someone who repents later in life should be worse off than us, we are acting like the brother of the prodigal son. This idea that we will be better off because we lived our whole life, or more precisely - more of our life, righteously, seems to stem from jealousy. Our reward will not diminish because someone else achieves the same honor, even if they began their quest later.
There's a good scripture for this too.
Matthew 20:1-14
1 FOR the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
We bargained for a penny (the Celestial Kingdom) if we labored all our day. Those who come later in their day, will receive the same wage. That's the way it is. There is no advantage for working longer. It matters that we answered the call to work in the vineyard.
That's all I have to say on this subject. For me, this subject has been sufficiently explored at this time. Brian, Jen, and Ms. Pacman, I thank you for your ideas. They have helped me to clarify and solidify my own grasp and understanding of this important topic.
Please, comment further, as needed, on this topic. I will be anxious to read any responses. I, however, will not respond more. Of course, if anyone writes something that just gets me worked up, then I reserve the unrevocable right to respond.
Brian, you have proved to be a worthy debater and I look forward to future "attacks."
I got this quote in an email and thought I would share it. It certainly put things in perspective for me today.
"Worthwhile doing enhances our character and capacity, but mortal circumstances and opportunities differ so greatly. But amid these differences, we can still become more like Christ in our capacity to be--
more loving, meek, patient, and submissive.
"By paying more attention to what we are rather than exclusively to what we do, our public and our private persons will be the same--the man or the
woman of Christ. Our intrinsic value is not dependent upon mortal acclaim anyway; in fact, the world may actually see us as weak and foolish. Countering, however, are divine affirmations."
(Neal A. Maxwell, "The Tugs and Pulls of the World," Ensign, Nov. 2000, 37)
-Ms. Pacman
Thank you Ms. Pacman. Now that's substantive. A very good quote.
Bob
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